O.C.

"Well, people gotta be ready to die.” I’m talking to O.C. on a Friday in September and our conversation doesn’t start out like a typical interview. Before going down my list of questions, we begin not as a hip-hop fan connecting with a major figure in the culture, but two members of the Black community checking in with one another. I describe the protests that have been happening in Philly over the last few months and we kick things off from there.  In this moment, it is easy for me to forget that the person on the other end of the phone is O.C., an extraordinarily skilled MC who’s delivered so many incredible projects over the last 29 years. Right now I am simply talking to a Black man who shares in my frustrations and is equally tired of the oppressive cycle that we still find ourselves in. To say Black folks are spent would be the biggest understatement of the last 400 plus years. We are beyond explaining that our lives are worthy of being lived. It’s hard to put into words what most of us are feeling because frankly, we’re tired of breaking this down too. So, what’s understood between two Black people engaging in this kind of dialogue is not only refreshing but healing. Whatever the next steps are to freedom, O.C. and I both agree that peace doesn’t factor into the equation.  

From the beginning of our conversation to very end, where we find ourselves deep in business of hip-hop before issuing a series of goodbyes, I’m reminded of the wisdom I’ve heard on every O.C. album I’ve ever listened to. He’s always been an artist who provides insight that makes you think and then think some more. O.C. shared with me the many lessons he’s learned over the years and what the next chapter of his career will look like. Unfortunately, some of this chapter will include O.C. stepping out of the ring and retiring from solo projects. But we still have some time before that happens and O.C. assured me that he’ll still be doing collaborations after his last album drops. I’m sure the rest of the world will join me in a sigh of relief after hearing that the work of Omar Credle will carry on. 

BVB: One of my most prized possessions is Issue #17 of The Flavor, which was a magazine based in Seattle, back in the nineties. It was a hip-hop publication and Issue #17 was published in August 1994. It features a young O.C. on the cover. 

O.C.: Yep, Yep. It's a red looking [cover]. 

BVB: Yes! You remember that? 

O.C.: Yeah, I remember those, I still have them. I got damn near everything. 

BVB: If you know anything about The Flavor, you know these magazines are really hard to come by. I can't find them anywhere. 

O.C.: I'll send you a picture real quick, after we get off the phone. And they're in great condition too. 

BVB: That is crazy, yo. The one I have is in pristine condition for it to be 26 years old. I never take it out of sleeve because I don't want anything to mess this shit up. I randomly found it on eBay. It literally sits on the wall, on display. 

In the Flavor interview you said something that I want to read. You said, "I think lyrics come first. If you didn't have the music, people wouldn't be listening to a lot of these rappers. I feel people would listen to my songs, even if they were acapella. We're going to make an acapella album." So that makes me wonder, have you ever thought about writing a book? 

O.C.: I have a book done already, actually. It's not the typical [autobiography]. A guy named Brian Kayser [co-wrote the book]. Brian did Cormega's book. It's the same guy. We just haven't packaged it up yet, but it's done. It's been done for three years. 

BVB: Really? So, what's the premise? 

O.C.: Basically, it's all about the music and here's why I say that. Anonymity for me is a big deal. Like I don't think you should give everybody everything in your life. I don't care if you're a celebrity, whatever you want to call yourself, entertainer. I think, you know, you give pieces of your life to people and that's it. And I also, shit, I done gave y'all pieces of my soul already for 23 years. You know what I'm saying? That's something I can't take back. And so, I'm very private when it comes to certain things, my personal life. I don't know if you seen pictures over the years of me, but I don't floss. I don't talk about what I have. I don't do none of that. And you know, I done owned luxury cars, I done owned all the bullshit, you know. But I've seen people take me dead serious. I show up to shows and I got on jewelry and I got gold teeth in my mouth and people be highly upset. I didn't understand that at first because people take the music so serious. So, they're like, "You O.C.? I know it's you, but you got gold chains?" This is me prior to this, you know what I'm saying? But you wouldn't know that. 

BVB: Cause you don't know me. 

O.C.: Right. But I'm definitely not talking about all this frivolous shit in the music. So, why should it bother you? Like you looking at the jewelry and the chains I have on when I'm on stage or you listening to the songs? But then I've got it, you know, it's entertainment. They look at everything about you. 

BVB: Well, people think they know you because they listened to your work and it speaks to them. But that couldn't be further from the truth. 

O.C.: Exactly. And my anonymity for me is everything, man. I rather be low key than on some superstar shit. Like I didn't shoot for that. And I did it on purpose. Like I knew the formula, but I just seen that wasn't my thing cause I didn't want the attention. 

BVB: I can't imagine that attention and wouldn't want it either. You remind me of Kawhi Leonard. Do you follow him at all? 

O.C.: No, school me on him. 

BVB: He plays for the Los Angeles Clippers. So, what you just said about being private, having that anonymity and not talking about your personal life, Kahwi is very similar. I've seen him do interviews on ESPN and when people ask him personal questions and he's like, that's not what I'm here for. I think because he's quiet and more reserved... 

O.C.: People are interested. 

BVB: Well, they're interested but they also take him for granted. He's a really good basketball player and it's almost like they forget what he's capable of. And I think that that applies to you too, because you're not out in the public eye, you're not hanging out, you're not kicking it with fans. You have your own private life. I think people overlook artists a lot of times when they're not in the spotlight. I mean, I think people like mystery, but I also think now, in 2020, we got to know what everyone's doing every minute of the day. 

O.C.: Yeah. And people don't get that, man. Like people talk this legend shit. And I'm just like, nah, man, like that's not me. "Nah, but you gotta take it on the chin and you are..." Listen. You know what's legendary? Kool Herc is still alive. Grandmaster Caz is still alive. Flash is still alive. Grand Wizzard Theodore's still alive. Ice-T is still alive. Yo, it's too many people before me for me to consider myself legendary. And I just don't feel like that. You know what I mean? Like certain people, to me, are meant for certain things. Not to say I'm not meant for what I'm doing, but my position stands where it stands. Like if I was going to be a mega star, that's how the role would have turned out from me. But it's not for everybody. And I'm in the books. I've been in the books since 1994. So, once I signed the record deal and people picked up my joint in, I've been in the history books. I've been making history ever since 1994. That's all I could say. If I died tomorrow, I'm still here. 

I'm never going anywhere. You understand? It's going to be one person, even if nobody remembers me, it's going to be one person that does. That shit means a lot. You're talking about what, 8 billion people on the planet? Come on, man. Somebody's going to remember you, especially if you made a mark in their mind. That's all that matters to me. You know, [when] I put out my first album, I was kinda disappointed cause I ain't go gold. But that was something that somebody stuck in my head, you know what I'm saying? And shit, me and Nas was signed under MC Serch, [with] Serchlite Productions. Neither one of us went gold, you know, but Nas had more of a buzz than me. So, what does that tell you? Illmatic didn't go gold for a long while when it first came out, you know. To me that was the powers that be controlling the narrative of who's been chosen and who's not. And you know, it's a little deeper than that and it's just my personal view. But you know, at the end of the day, man, like I said, it's going to be one person on the planet that remembers what I've done. That's all that counts for me. 

BVB: Yeah. And I think you're right. When you consider the amount of people in the world, that in itself is humbling. I also think, to speak to your point, that everyone has a place and is designed for a certain destiny. Some people skyrocket to fame. And then other people are sort of in the shadows. But that doesn't mean that they haven't contributed as much as the other person. It just looks different. 

O.C.: Right. And, and you know, it always fucks me up, excuse my French, when I bump into LL and he be like, "Yeah, O." And I'm looking at him like, did he just say O.?! Or Chuck D or Rakim or whoever. And I just be like being like, damn, these is my peers, you know. I had to get out of that frame of mind that people don't recognize what I do cause I did feel that way at one point. Like damn, Chuck D just called me O. or LL just call me O., or you know, Kane. I'm like, yo, these dudes, they pay attention to everybody if they have an interest in them. So, I had to start learning how to take that in, you know, cause it's is a small fraternity. This music business ain't as big as what people think it is. Just the entertainment industry in itself, it's not that big. It's one circle, you know, acting, rapping, singing, dancing, all of that is one circle. Producing, journalism, everything is all in one circle. There's just different parts. You know, you might have this department for journalism, you might have this department for production. A lot of things that I was taking for granted and not paying attention to I understand now. A little bit. And like I said, I've been around these guys all my adult life but it's like, damn man, I didn't know these guys felt that way about me. 

BVB: I'm sure it's surreal. 

O.C.: Yeah, cause I'm not sitting here saying, yeah look at me, me, me, me, O.C. I'm not doing that. I'm sitting back and I'm watching and dudes like, why are you not up on stage? And it's just like, um, because I'm here to watch the show, you know what I mean? And people don't get that. 

BVB: Regardless, you still made a huge impact. 

O.C.: That I knew. For certain things, like to say legendary, realistically doesn't pertain to everybody. Not everybody is legendary. It's nothing wrong with that either. You made an impact in a certain way, like you just said. I'm cool with that. But you know, I'm immune to it too. When people say it, I'll be like, “no doubt.” 

BVB: What advice would 2020 O.C .give to 1994 O.C.? 

O.C.: Aww man. If I knew then what I knew now, I probably would be on some next level artist shit because this shit is a business. I took it for granted in the beginning. Like how we cracked down on the young people about money, spotlights, stuff like that? At the beginning, I didn't realize this was a business. Like we in a business to sell records and people always used to say, [if] you make this kind of record, you'll sell out. So, I thought about that shit for a long time, for years. And I was like damn, so you not signing to a record company ain't no sellout shit? Why would it be a sellout if I make records like Puff? My point is we in a business to sell records. That's the bottom line. And if I could tell myself 20 years ago like, yo, make sure you in this shit for the long haul as far as like making you know, popular music. Pop is not a bad thing. I thought it was for years, but it's just a derivative of popular. 

BVB: Well, I think it's more exposure and it helps you reach a wider audience. 

O.C.: Exactly and move into different things besides music sometimes. I don't know if you've seen the interview I did recently, but I just said a lot of people would have been mad at Big L had he been alive cause dude was on that path for superstar shit. Like he had a gold record before he was cold in the dirt. The irony in that is that me and A.G. said yo, this n***a is laughing at us from the grave. "Y'all n***as still ain't touched gold?" That's something he would have said. "Like damn, y'all been doing this [for] this long and y'all still aint got no individual gold albums? Y'all dummies. I'm dead and I got gold records in 30 days." You know what I'm saying? You know, Fat Joe, people used to try to talk about Joe to us. And it's like, yo, them two dudes had the mindset from the gate. They wanted to be stars. You know, this is not new to us. Like what you see Joe do and manifest, this is what he put out in the universe early on. Same thing with L. They was going for that. They was looking for the whole thing. They was going for the Nipsey Hussle. Yeah, they was going for that. 

BVB: That's what their path was. 

O.C.: Yeah. So, a lot of the people, they probably would have turned they back, like they turned their back on Jay right now. They was talking shit about Biggie too. But, yeah, that's what Big L was going for. 

BVB: I think it's interesting the way we immortalized the dead, you know? People are fascinated by Big L because they caught a glimpse before he even got started and that's what everything is based on. So, when you say I don't know that people would have liked Big L at this stage of his career because he was going off in this direction, I think people are taken aback by that cause they think they already know. 

O.C.: Exactly. You just hit the nail right on the head. They think they know, and they have no idea. And dude is not arrogant in the sense of you wouldn't like him, but you know, we know L. So, it was like, he got immortalized at a certain age and death, you know what I'm saying? And I'm sure if he could hop out the grave, he would be like, "yeah, and I definitely didn't get older," you know? He was that kind of person, like he would get under your skin. So, everything he says, you know, you would take it literally because he knew how to do that. And that's what was so intelligent about him. And if people didn't understand that and get that through Ebonics and Size Em' Up and stuff like that, like, he didn't sound like Devil's Son on those records. Like you could tell he was in high school. He was still in high school, his last year of school, when he did the Lifestylez album. And only in two years, like a two-year, three-year span, he metamorphosized into Ebonics. And it's a different person if you hear the music and the lyrics and you know, he honed in on his skill early, but he was special. 

BVB: Yeah, absolutely. One of a kind. Did being in a collective like Diggin' In the Crates, surrounded by equally talented artists and producers, further motivate you to step up your game, to perfect your craft? 

O.C.: Not at first cause we didn't start out as a collective. This is what people don't realize. 

BVB: You just came together. 

O.C.:  Right, individually. We was already individually doing our thing on our own. We came together after everybody got deals. But you know, what people don't understand is D.I.T.C. is digging in the crates, literally. Diggin' was a production team. It started out as a production team. Diamond and Showbiz and Premier. Premier is an unofficial, but officially DITC member. They did Finesse's first album together. And it was a production thing. And then I think Diamond, you know, did his producer and MC thing. And you know, I met Finesse who was the glue to everybody coming together: Show and A.G., him meeting L. Diamond, Finesse and Show and Fat Joe grew up in Forest Projects together, so they already knew each other. And Buck lived on the other side of town out of BX. I was from downtown and L was from Harlem. You know, it was just something that we didn't think about when we did get together. Nobody said, “you down now.” And you know, I came in through Finesse and Buck. And I was down. 

BVB: The impact that all of you all made, I hope that everyone realizes it. I mean, just amongst you, the accomplishments are incredible. 

O.C.: Right. Well, we remind people, at least I do. I tell people probably 60% of the music you listened to in the nineties D.I.T.C. produced. Like I said, besides Joe and L, all the producers are multi-platinum producers. I mean if you click on D.I.T.C. Studios, you see the plaques on the wall in our studio and [it] wraps around the whole studio. It's like maybe 200 plaques on the wall, you know. And I'm exaggerating, but I'm not. 

You know, Diamond was on The Score. That sold 30 million worldwide, I think. He did the title track to that. Buck did the trifecta: Biggie, Jay-Z and Nas up until Street's Disciple and a couple of other new Nas albums. P's on Jay-Z albums. Finesse is on Dre's album, Chronic 2001. He did the Mary joint. Yo, the list goes on and on. If you talking about remixes, every producer in Diggin' did all the remixes in the nineties up until this point, you know, up until the early, mid 2000's. So, you know, what y'all going to say about us? That we ain't make no mark? Shit. Y'all dance to most of the stuff. 

BVB: I want to ask about your Tiny Desk concert. One of the first things I did to prep for our conversation was to rewatch that a couple of times. It's one of my favorite ones. I've been watching this series for years and it's really nice to see [NPR] incorporate hip-hop more. Initially, they didn't always do that. So, it's nice to see them have more hip-hop artists on. I was in that space years ago and it really is tiny. I mean, there's not a lot of room in there. So, when you're watching, it's nice because there's no distractions, which allows you to totally focus on the artists. But I'm wondering what it's like on the other end of that. What was the experience like for you, being in that setting? 

O.C.: Well, first of all, my friend Abby, the woman that situates and runs was the Tiny Desk series, she got in contact with Pharoahe. Make a long story short, I didn't know about NPR and the Tiny Desk series and Monch is like, "Yo, Abby's trying to get at you. And I'm like, who's Abby? And he's like, "Yo, just do me a favor. Watch this link." And I watched it and I'm like, alright, what's up? He started laughing like, "Yo dawg, do you understand what this shit is?" And I'm like, nah, I don't know. What is it supposed to be? And he explained it like, nobody could ask to be on this show. "You only get an invite, O." And I'm like, okay. He still was like, "Ah, I give up. Here's Abby's number. If you want to do this shit, call her. If not, then you're on your crazy O.C. shit." I said, cool. I called her; she was excited to talk to me. I was oblivious to the NPR thing. And she convinced me to come on and she was like, “How you going to get down here? “I'll supply it." And I was like, no, I'm good. You know, I think I did the Blue Note, maybe two weeks prior to that or a month prior to that. So, I had the band members, you know, I already knew the band that I was going to take on. Then she was like, "So, you're going to fly?" I was like, nah, we're going to drive down. I'm going to rent vans and come down. She's like, "You're going to do all this shit out your pocket?" I said, well, y'all not paying me, yeah! You know? It's just the opportunity. So, I did this shit, and yo, I was nervous. Not because, you know, I ain't never did it in front of a live band, but it's not as, like you said, it's not as big as what it looks like on camera. 

BVB: Yeah, it’s small. 

O.C.: Right. And you know, people telling me how perform like, you can't get as loud. And I'm like, shit. I seen the Roots on here, I seen Bilal on here. Like they get busy! You know? So, that was probably my only pet peeve. Like I couldn't really open up, so to speak. But I enjoyed it, man. Like it gave me a whole other market that I didn't know about. 

BVB: I think it's the best way to enjoy your favorite artists because it further highlights their talents. You can't help but the focus on them, you know what I mean? And somebody like you, you're such a wordsmith. So, to hear you in the setting where it's quieter, where you don't have people screaming, jumping around, I'm focused on you. It really speaks to who you are as an artist and your skills. 

O.C.: Thank you. The thing that made me nervous though, before I got in there, was looking down the street when we pulled up and seeing the Oval Office shit or DC or whatever. And I was like, oh shit, like down the block from the Oval Office, like, oh wow. And then I called Monch and I'm like, yo, like I'm a little nervous. He like, "Man, you done did thousands of live shows." I'm like, I never did nothing like this before. 

BVB: The energy is different. 

O.C.: Yeah, it was different, man. But I enjoyed it though. Like I would love to do it again, you know? But like I say, you know, this is invite only, like you have to be invited on this. So, I say all that to say like what [Abby] told me that, “do you realize like people call to get on the show?” And I was like, no doubt. That's what I know. And she's like, "You're just so cold." I was like, no, I'm just so nervous. I get quiet when I get nervous and you know, I might seem cool, but you know, this is just something different from me. 

BVB: It's one of the best ones. There's no question, in my opinion. You just did a podcast [episode] with Breaking Adams in the UK and they asked you about doing a live jazz ensemble [album]. I'm with them. I would love to hear that because you sounded so good with this band. 

O.C.: Finesse been on my ass about that for the past few years. He kind of gave up on me with that, but he wanted to recreate the whole Word...Life thing. Like he has a passion for that. He was proud of me when he when I did the Blue Note thing cause that was the first time I did the live band thing, but he knows what I'm capable of. But he's like, "I think you need to do Word...Life or Jewelz in a live setting and you should let me do it." Because, you know, he was putting together those Billboard Live situations overseas. I think he did him and Kane like maybe 10 years ago. And you know, it was just incredible. But you know, I'm with it, that's the easy part for me. Performing is easy. The hard part is making music like, you know, from scratch. 

BVB: So, speaking of recording, you said in the next couple of years that you're going to retire, you're not gonna make any more albums. Is that true? 

O.C.: Yeah, yeah. I'll be 50 next year. I mean, I'm gonna still do features, you know, I have a group with Apathy. I still got some bucket list things I want to do, but for me personally, O.C. projects solo? This will probably be my last project I do by myself. 

BVB: And you don't think you'll change your mind about recording? 

O.C.: As far as a solo album? 

BVB: Yeah, as far as stopping after the next year or so. 

O.C.: After this, this, whatever album I put together now, this is definitely my final album, solo wise. 

BVB: So, without recording [solo albums], what does the next chapter look like for you? 

O.C.: I don't know. You think we're going to live to see another 20 years? 

BVB: God willing. 

O.C.: Hopefully man. I'm feeling like I would have been in the lab now, but I'm feeling like if I go in now, I'm going to have some unfinished shit to talk about, because it's so much. From day to day, it's new things popping up. So, it's like, damn, I got to update. So, I'm just watching it. Yo, I just heard Pharoahe's new album. That's why I'mma probably chill out too at some point. Some dudes is just extra ordinary and he's one of those guys. It's a particular song on his new album he has that I'm just like, yo, I'm done, man. Like, I ain't fucking with you. He's like, "Stop playing man, stop bullshitting too. Get to work on this last project or this next project." I'm like, man, you just inspired me and you kinda like made me want to stop. Dude is a genius. 

BVB: Yeah, he's one of the best. 

O.C.: I don't even put him in like, you know, these top fives. He's not one of them guys. `Like a few people, quite a few people to me, ain't on no list for me personally. They just are who they are. 

BVB: They're like extra-terrestrials, those aliens from outer space. 

O.C.: Yeah, they just them guys that this is what they do in they sleep, in their subconscious. 

BVB: You talked to Sway a few years ago about starting a coalition with other artists. You were talking about touring and how these promoters don't really recognize your worth in terms of being compensated. So, is that still on the table? Is that something that you would like to eventually do? I think it's needed. 

O.C.: What, tour? 

BVB: No, not tour, but putting together a coalition to advocate that you're compensated for what you should be compensated for. I think there's a lot of muddy waters to go through whenever you're dealing with that because people are shiesty in the industry. I just wondered if starting that coalition or starting some sort of entity that fielded that kind of stuff was actually a reality for you. 

O.C.: It is, but you have to know when you start any new business in anything like that, particularly like that, like a coalition, [it goes against] the powers that be because you know, they operate on popularity. 

BVB: Oh, absolutely. 

O.C.: I might've been an opening act two hours before Hov and Bey came on. And people were just walking in the stadium. But that's a big deal because it's [On the Run Tour] or whatever. And I'm just being sarcastic. People don't understand the fight in that, man. Like, you know, I would literally turn down promoters over the years. And in turn, these promoters will become friends with some of the artists, you know, some of my peers. And some of these peers I know and some of them I don't. But the bottom line is, when you become friends with that promoter, you really fucking it up for everybody because they're giving you friendship money, meaning they're not giving you what you're worth, they giving you, "uh, well at least you, you get to come out on the road and come overseas." 

This is not friendship, this is business, you know what I'm saying? Pay me what I'm worth. If you do your job and promote as a promoter, people gonna come to the shows. lt's so technical now. We got, you know, social media, so people feel like if I put on a show with some artists, all I gotta do is go social media, post it on my page and that's it. This is what we dealing with now, especially for artists from my era. More or less you ain't gotta do that with the Lil' Durks and these other guys, cause this is they era, you know? They're more popular and they're younger. You know what I'm saying? This is the kind of sport that we in and that people don't understand that, man. I would love to start a coalition all day, but it's so much work that has to go into that. You know, you have to have basically hit records, man. Like literally hit records like to make that kinda move. And you know, I think a lot of people get discouraged and I know I'm rambling on, but me, I just tell them, nah. You know what I'm saying? [When] people contact me, I always tell them, make an offer. I'm not giving you an offer. It's a different day. 

And that's how I gauge how serious the people take me. So, if you telling me, well, I got $500, that's not going to fly. "Well, I thought you was a real artist." No, it ain't got nothing to do with real. Artists got bills, mortgages, kids, family rent, all kinds of shit. So, what is five hundred bucks going to do for me? That's not even covering half of my risk. That's me when I was still living in New York, paying $2000 a month. What's five hundred bucks? You understand what I'm saying? 

BVB: Yeah, absolutely. 

O.C.: Man, it made me fall by the wayside for a few years. And, yo, the people, pulled me back out. Cause other than that, I was like, I'm done. Not because I was discouraged, but it was just like, man, that takes a lot of energy and time to, you know, the “no's” and you know, the grappling over prices. 

BVB: It's a lot of bullshit to weed through. 

O.C.: It's a lot of bullshit, man. And I'm not going to make those kinds of records. I love Joe. Joe probably outdid most of our peers. Jay, 50 and them got more money than Joe, but Joe got more hit records than them in the past 10 years. Like they haven't done what he's done. You know, he did it in a space of ten years, eight to ten years. He did All the Way Up. And he did Lean Back. That's not easy to do. 

You know, Remy was locked up for eight years, came home and got a hit record and she became a millionaire. You know? So, people don't understand these dynamics with this shit, man. And me, I'm just like, my worst is me telling you “no” and you realizing that a few years down the line or one or two years later, or whenever. Or you never realize it and you get what you want, but you're not going to get it from me. 

BVB: Well, if they don't realize that, they're the ones that are missing out. You're just protecting your worth and your work and everything that you put into this game. 

O.C.: Exactly. 

BVB: If they don't understand that, then it's not really worth it. 

O.C.: I tell people I've been doing this since 1991, on paper. I debuted with Organized Konfusion, with Pharoahe and Prince in 91'. Respect me. My work is speaking for itself.